Big weighty issues here. Will comment more in the next couple of days.
Haha Leonard totally loves this ;)
and again this moral question concerning Creation has led christians into arguing: does Hell exist? They are deeply disturbed with these knowledges imparted by Enlightened Beings through the gospels which were not found in the OT / jewish traditions. Why? Because if Hell exists, then Creation is simply IMMORAL. Creation can only be moral, at least, if Hell does not exist. 8)this is why modern pauline christians nowadays even refuted the belief in the existence of hellish realms (gnostic: âTartarosâ).
Again, the only clear reference about the existence of such horrible realms can be found in the buddhist scriptures. Even the spiritually advanced hindus did not know about its existence. I tried looking for a reference to it in the vedas, yet i couldnât find any.
"Now, there is one thing often asked touching the teaching concerning the unclean place, the ultimate disposal of the spiritual garbage. My friends, the doctrine of eternal condemnation is false. This cannot be, for it asserts a downward finality, which not only is against the whole creative intent, but also questions the goodness of The Supreme Spirit. The misery suffered by the unclean beings in their self-selected, filthy abode of shadowy horror, is in fact a purging and purifying cure. Though it lasts many ages of time, and the road upward through the density of matter is long and arduous, there is an end, be it in glory or oblivion. After so-called death, which word in former times meant no more than removal, each soulspirit goes to the habitat to which it is drawn by affinity. There, all its latent powers and qualities built up and hoarded during earthly life are released and revealed. These should suffice for complete spiritual happiness and freedom, and this is what the Ancients meant when they said, "His qualities will provide his food." Man, having learned to live harmoniously on Earth, continues in a state of harmony above. The Ancients also referred to this when they said, "He who sows the seeds of discord reaps the wild wind harvest.""
Everyone makes mistakes, even the gods make mistakes... The greater the power that you have, the bigger the mistakes that you tend to make. Especially when they are without FOREKNOWLEDGE.Yet, there are excellent Pure Abodes created by the Perfect Ones. Where suffering does not exist. Yet only a very very few of us can be reborn in these realms. And yes, your vows, aspirations & affinities may greatly determine where you will be born into⌠be it wholesome ones or unwholesome ones.
Our affinity to carnality simply means that we are wishing to be reborn again in the perishable realms (buddhist: Kamaloka, gnostic: Realms of Chaos) where the Archons (buddhist: Maradevas) rule over us.
the stronger the desire & affinity, the lower you will descend in these Kamaloka realms. if you have any experience w/ OBE youâll know this. 8)
Well talking strictly about the Kolbrin views here, which is what concerns this group, I'd say the Kolbrin teaches that everything is as it's supposed to be, there's no incongruence in creation whatsoever, merely a crisis of perception by humans with limited understanding.âIf The Supreme Spirit is indeed the essence of love and kindness, could He not have created man in conditions, which gave him complete contentment and happiness, absolutely free from pain, sorrow and restraint? Is all this suffering and distress really necessary?â
âHe could have created a perfect being and placed him in a condition of absolute contentment and happiness, but what purpose would this serve? Could such a being respond to love? Where could he learn its full meaning except in a state of lovelessness? Such things as love, pity, gratitude, mercy, unselfishness and all the other virtues are uncreatable qualities which can come into existence only through experience. Nothing can realise itself through a state of purity and perfection. Only by contrast can it become conscious of its existence.â
âPain checks man in the midst of senseless enjoyment and makes him ponder his fate. It causes him to turn his thoughts towards greater things and to reflect on the approach of death. Suffering, sorrow and trouble are tests, which, if passed successfully, qualify the soulspirit for entry into the greater sphere of existence. They create in him the qualities, which are needed there. To those who realise that these tests and trials have a purpose, they do not appear too harsh. But to those who cannot rise above them or who blame The Supreme Spirit or their fellowmen for what befalls them, the tests and trials appear as unnecessary hardships barely endurable.â
the failure in understanding gnosticism/buddhism is that ppl keeps attributing everything to 1 single entity. the fact is everything came into being not due to a single cause ("ekajati") but rather through a multiple of causes ("anekajati"). Why? Because Time has no beginning. One day they will understand... Christ in the gnostic gospels say that the future generation of the Elect will.Time has no beginning, while beings (including creator gods) have a beginning, and thus also, an end. This is what theists have failed to understand about the Truth presented by modern science & the âhereticalâ buddhistic/gnostic texts.
Well this seems pretty reasonable to me. The Kolbrin says:âTime no longer slept on the bosom of God, for now there was change where before all had been unchanging, and change is time.â
âMark the flight of an arrow from the hands of a bowman. It flies from the bent bow, time passes, then it finds its mark. But to Me the arrow leaves the bow, and strikes the mark together. Distance, time and change are not with Me.â
Whatever has a beginning, also has an end, manuel! Including creator gods...
"In the beginning all things arose from the invisible and into the invisible all things will disappear in the end, but the end is not the end of the spirit. Out beyond this material creation born of the invisible, there is a higher eternal invisible of greater substance. When all material things have passed away, this will remain. Above all is timelessness, which is eternity, and there is My abode, the supreme goal of man, and those who attain it dwell in eternity. I am the Eternal God".
do not confuse the created with the Creator.TIME is of this realm
Again, ManuelââŹâ˘s knowledge of the Kolbrin puts me to shame as he has answered nearly all LuminuousââŹâ˘ objections with very powerful quotes which I feel no need to improve upon. But IââŹâ˘m happy to continue the debate personally if Luminuous can successfully answer the arguments Manuel posted out of the Kolbrin. Thus far, he has ignored these points, but I look forward to a well reasoned rebuttal.
Manuel wrote:
ââŹĹI was about to make a group entry asking precisely if thereâs any empirical way to argue for morality unless the idea of the existence of the soul is first accepted as true.ââŹÂ
Please make the post anyway, Manuel, this is a very important question on its own.
the Primordial Creator is the Ignorant Aspect of the Mind. You guys still don't get it do you. The duality of Subject & Object and the consequent conditioned concept of Time & Space arose from it. Only later then much coarser existences of beings gradually took place. From the subtlemost realms where beings have only minds, and then the coarser realms where it is more & more conditioned due to the stronger downward force of this Delusion/Ignorance (of hallucinating about inherent existence leading to dualistic grasping in the Primordial Monistic Mind, this in turn leads to the formation of more & stronger delusions which in turn again leads to such stronger dualistic/conditional grasping). The stronger this self-delusion is, the stronger pull downwards it has to these beings. This is why Renunciation has always been the basic principle of the Path towards salvation.I can relate a story about a rich man who died without understanding this scientific Truth (Dharma), thinking that his existence happened according to some omnipotent will of a benevolent spirit (âGodâ). When he was alive, he hid his money under the trunk of a tree without telling anyone, nay, not even his own family & children knowing it. When he died he was reborn into a puppy who was born within the vicinity of that tree due to his strong affinity to that place.
Contrary to what theists hold that as if most people, especially good people who died are reborn in heaven, according to buddhism/gnosticism this is not the Truth. The Truth is most of these beings who die are mostly (about more than 99%) are getting reborn in the lower realms (as animals, unclean spirits, demons & hell denizens). Read your Bible if you donât blv this story. READ what your Bible tells you (rather than what your ignorant pauline ministers tell you) about where the OT prophets are reborn after they die: Sheol (AKA Tartaros/Hell). There is also an account of it in the âhereticalâ Gospel of Bartholomew about how during the 3 bardo (â>sanskr. âAntarabhavaâ) days after the Crucifixion Jesus tried to save these ignorant prophets who were their ancestors who were ignorant of GNOSIS, worshipping the Chief Archon instead. You should know this story is again perfectly reminiscent with those you can find in the Great Vehicle buddhist literature (such as the Boddhisattvas Ksitigarbha & Avalokiteshvara).
You may want to read The Parable of the Buddha as a Skillful Fisherman in the Upaya-Kausalya Sutra.
I also happen to find a lot of stories even videos of exorcism in the pentecostal churches which confirms this Truth. You can also read the childhood story of ppl in christianity such as Derek Prince Jr. which no theistic speculations can explain.
I donât want to argue. Knowing the deep slumber of most beings who canât even see the Truth around them in their daily lives. Even Jesus was crucified by these ignorant bigots even mistaking THE SON OF MAN as something else (âan only begotten son of an ignorant creator god/deityâ.
Find out about the Alaya-vijnana/Dharmakaya and then you may understand The Father (NOUS) that Jesus tried to introduce to you: the unknown Father that they have never heard of.
May all beings attain GNOSIS.
And sadly, there is only 1 way of knowing this Truth. That is by the attainment of GNOSIS. 8)
I think there is a lot of miscommunication and misunderstood terminology occurring here. Luminuous, without Eastern terminology or complex linguistic gymnastics, please in simple terms explain this ââŹËunknown fatherââŹâ˘, or God the Father of Jesus as he spoke about this ââŹĹHeavenly FatherââŹÂ.
The gnostic descriptions about this "Unknown Father" who is a "Monad" (meaning sth free from dualism & thus any dualistic descriptions) who is "Mind Only", "Unborn", "more excellent than gods" and "a non-being" actually fits perfectly with the buddhistic description of the Dharmakaya / Alaya-vijnana.Like i told you, the Original gnostic doctrine of Trinity (rather than the counterfeit, inferior version weâve heard all this time from our ignorant pauline church ecclesiastics) clearly resembles the buddhistic concept of TRIKAYA.
Even if you had some understanding of languages, you can even cross-transliterate them in quite consistency with each other:
TRIKAYA (tri=3, kaya=body) = TRIMORPHIC PROTENNOIA
The perfect 3-in-one body (Dharmakaya-Sambhogakaya-Nirmanakaya) of a Boddhisattva. You can ask your local Tibetan buddhist lama, possibly from the gelukpa traditions, if you want to know about what it exactly is.It might take a whole book to explain what it is in words. But one thing for sure this is not what you theists think (an omnipotent creator god). For one thing, there is no such a thing as omnipotence. And there are many gods. i know buddhism/gnosticism is very difficult for many ppl esp. w/ deluded monotheistic background to understand. but at least with logical analysis strengthened with scientific proofs, someday people will get it of what it is all about.
I think we are getting closer to agreeing with your description of the âUnborn Monadâ and what we are calling âGodâ. This is the âFirst Causeâ, the original creator, the âDivine Sparkâ that is within all but also above and beyond creation. But, my friend, I think you are vastly misinterpreting what you define as âmonotheismâ.
I like what luminous brings to the table despite all the eastern terminology, what I think unfortunately is that he tends to argue a strawman to often.
OK, actually this thing called "God" in theisms is quite confusing, because ppl tend to ascribe too many things to this confusing concept. The problem is such an entity they're fantasizing about does not exist. Or strictly speaking, it can't even exist.Have you heard about this typical fundamental question regarding monotheism?
OK, here goes: âCan this âOmnipotent Godâ of yours create a stone which is so heavy that even himself can not lift?â
or âCan this âOmnipotent Godâ of yours create another Omnipotent God?âAny answer you give will only show you that such a concept of Omniopotence in monotheism is completely FALSE.
If any theistic concept may come any close to the gnostic/buddhistic concept of this âFatherâ/âDharmakayaâ, then it would be MONISM (which is also considered as a âheresyâ in the pauline christian traditions), rather than monotheism.
The difference being that this gnostic/buddhistic âFatherâ soteriology tends to have this strong anticosmic tone (esp. in regards to the Realms of Chaos / Kamaloka) while the monistic traditions tend to be affirming or perhaps completely silent on this matter.
Valentinian Gnostics & Chinese âBuddhismâ are examples of this hybrid / confused concept of a mixture between Creationism & Gnosis.
Yes, I do find strains of Buddhism and Gnosticism quite ââŹĹanti-cosmicââŹÂ. It hates creation, it hates reality, it hates life, it hates the condition it finds itself in, and desires an annihilation of existence into nothingness.
This is a path that can spur one on to improve and transcend, but what a miserable way to go about it, no?
ââŹĹCan this âOmnipotent Godâ of yours create a stone which is so heavy that even himself can not lift?"
or âCan this âOmnipotent Godâ of yours create another Omnipotent God?â
Yes, and yesââŹÂŚ but not in the manner you may thinkââŹÂŚ 
@ Leonard: i give up. you completely missed me. as long as you keep hallucinating about such a thing as omnipotence, you will never accept these "heretical" gospels & the Truth that Enlightened Beings have taught us. You don't even understand the scientific law of thermodynamics that Energy is neither created nor can it be annihilated. Just like what happened with Buddhism when it was studied by the chinese ("zen buddhism"), the majority of the Western World is still far from understanding the scientific Truth / Dharma.I have expounded over and over that you can NOT annihilate yourself. If youâre a man of science i think you would know this better. Your fleshly & worldly passions are like wine that make you drunk. When youâre drunk you will never understand what goodness is. Once again it is not annihilation. It would be falling to the other extreme of IGNORANCE if you think that you can annihilate yourself. In Buddhism, this is known as the extreme of Nihilism.
I have provided you with a reference video about shunyata last time. But you guys would never listen. For you are too proud with your materialistic creationism nonsense.
There has been too many philosophers, even theologians such as Augustine who have refuted this ignorant concept of Omnipotence.
Look around you. Open your eyes. There is no such a thing as this omnipotent benevolent entity who controls this Universe. Rather it is SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. By following its norms, even considering it as âDivine Providenceâ (rather than Diabolical), it will drag you down lower into the bottom of the hierarchy of realms of existence for you have accustomed yourself to its savage norms.
As long as one can not tell the difference between the hard FACTS & their insane HALLUCINATIONS, never will they see the Truth. When you see INIQUITY you say it is justice. When you see wickedness, you say it is benevolence. When you see savagery, you say it is âProvidenceâ.
You belong to this World so i guess i have nothing more to say.
I never said that the Universe can not expand. you completely misunderstood everything i say because you seem to have no knowledge about these texts. The Enlightened One actually had preceeded modern astronomers by 2500 years by proclaiming about the endless expansion & contraction of the Universe(s) from a time without beginning.
Learn science. Read the buddhist scriptures. You will no longer be confused anymore. It will open your eyes to KNOWLEDGE. 8)
If Christ was omnipotent then why should He be crucified? To redeem you from your unforgivable sins?? The World rejected Him but you say that He sacrificed himself as an oblation to the Chief Archon. A savage doctrine of your ancestor (of sacrificing your sons to the gods in exchange for petty worldly benefits) you consider to be âpietyâ/âgoodnessâ. Your ancestors went down to Hades, and you are in fact walking towards the same path as your ignorant ancestors took.
âthe blood of the lambâ to appease the gods?
yes it may please them, but where will you go after this life for such ignorant savage practice? heaven? if heaven is full with savage ignorant ppl then what kind of heaven would that be like? think again. 8)So youâre saying that you expect to see ppl lk Bush Jr., Osama Bin Laden, Benedict, the crazy popes, the majority of deludedly selfish theists and the likes, AGAIN, in heaven? and wait a minute⌠for ETERNITY? LOL 8)
Christ was baptized in the tradition of (mandaean) gnosticism. He did not baptize anyone. And youâre saying that by receiving baptism you could go to heaven? LOL 8)
THINK again.
Your gods are nothing but a laughing stock to the Perfect Aeons. There is no such a thing as omnipotence. These gods of yours too someday will die. Some of them will also be reborn in Hell for their ignorant self-delusions. 8)
If there is no such urgency, the Perfect Aeons would have not EMANATE themselves into this World.
Your ancestors went down to Hades. And you will never believe that because you stick to that omnipotent nonsense that your ignorant ancestors hold. 8)
