As much as I like you Leonard and appreciate your participation here, these kind of answers become redundant after a while for people like us who have also been researching and studying for many years the same teachings that guide your logic. I've read enough times already that argumentation you just espoused within the Kolbrin itself and I know it like the palm of my hand. I don't ask you to tell all that you know but are forbidden to reveal, but the moralizing replies become a bit tiresome after a while. There are certain clues that some of your Culdian texts possess very similar terminology and could have been originated by the same individual or at least under the direction of the same individual. Unfortunately even though many times the Culdians would seem to wish to brush off questions about the provenance of the Kolbrin, the reality is that the truth of the provenance will always be as crucial as the truth of the teachings found within, you can't escape this reality.
Truth in opposition to all else means truth in opposition to ALL else. No compromise.
The Kolbrin, as with the rest of our Teachings, are full of moralizing, principals, and values. In my discussion of these matters, you will hear these subjects repeated and expanded upon. If you tire of these things, your quest for the provenance of the Kolbrin will continue to reach dead ends. The above perspective will have you leaving Kolbrin behind frustrated and choosing a lesser, easier path.
Learning the Truth is a process, a journey…not a sign on the side of the road or some expert or guru telling you what is. The Kolbrin, like myself, is actually giving you the tools to discover the Truth yourself. It is not my problem should you choose to reject these tools.
Well that's not a wholly acceptable answer, you see it is not a matter of discussing the moral aspects of the teachings (which we do in here all the time), but it is a matter of bringing up the moral aspect of the teachings when we're discussing aspects of a different nature.
It does seem too much like you wish to avoid certain areas of the discussion and I respect that, but do not think for a second that the question of the provenance of the Kolbrin will ever stop being matter of concern. While the possibility exists that the texts have been a fabrication the subject will continue to arise, and I suspect that not even you my friend can quell these concerns because I don’t think you know the whole truth either.
Trying to bring the subject to a personal level and insinuating that lack of faith will render a person’s efforts null is not acceptable either.
With lack of faith I refer to lack of faith on the provenance of the material.
Who mentioned faith?
My experiences are my own, and have confirmed for me many of the issues you have struggled with, and yes, those issues include those doubts within the material realm.
Like the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.
When parents wish to instruct young children into certain behaviors sometimes they fabricate stories to inculcate these concepts in their young minds, but when the children start to grow up and realize certain discrepancies they begin questioning these stories. It may be true that the intention of the parents and the behaviors they wish to instill in their children's minds may be wholly good, but it is also true that you will not be able to stop the inquisitiveness of the growing child to question for the truth.
Now it’s true I can’t state with complete assurance that this scenario applies to our situation, but the possibility is there and your reticence and evasiveness to provide for more transparency in certain regards don’t help matters. Now when you try to avoid these matters and at the same time pass a moral judgement on those who ask you’re really taking the wrong stance in my opinion.
My inquisitiveness on these issues has no relation to my current path in life. In fact I have been shaped by the Kolbrin as an individual in many regards and would pay very little honor to it by not being as inquisitive as I am, and I would challenge you to prove me wrong…
“Did God appear to man on Earth and man cast a spear at Him, He would not blast man with wrath but admire him for his audacity. Such is the attitude of God towards man. Thus, God has made him, therefore is it meet that man should fawn upon Him with servility?”
This doesn’t just refers to man’s attitude towards God
I, for one, did not read any insinuation of a lack of faith from Leonard... I , also, do not care if the Kolbrin is historical or not... I know there is truth there in a form easily digestible. I also prefer our discussions when they are more about "The Path" and not which path the "Destroyer" might take.
I don’t mind you throwing spears at me…I’m a big boy, and can take it.
I don’t doubt your inquisitiveness or effort, but question certain methods. If you’ve been asking questions in a Way for years that haven’t provided a satisfactory result, I’d think it might be past time you try a different Way. And the fact you lash out at these suggestions probably won’t get you any nearer to your goal either…just sayin.
But please do be more specific about my lack of transparency…
I have been very thorough with answers that don’t take easily to verbal description, and can offer no material proof besides giving you tools to discover the material proof yourself. I can state with experience, that should you choose to reject these unconventional means, your ends will meet with more of the same…
Say Rex, what is that passage from the Kolbrin, posted not too long ago, that affirms total self responsibility, and ends nearly every question with “I do”? That might be more than a fitting response to this subject.
And +1 to your response above, Rex.
A SCROLL FRAGMENT - ONE
(Salvaged from the Great Book of The Sons of Fire this is all that remains of some sixteen damaged pages relating to an initiation ceremony.)
Who will reward or punish me? I will.
Who besets my path with sorrow? I do.
Who can grant me a life of everlasting glory? I can.
Who must save me from the horror of malformation? I must.
Who will guide my footsteps through life? I will.
Who brings joy into my life and gladdens my heart? I do.
Who brings peace and contentment to my spirit? I do.
Who lightens the burdens of my labour? None but myself.
Whose courage will protect me from the workers of evil? My courage.
Whose wisdom will guide me and enlighten my heart? My wisdom.
Whose will rules my destiny? My will.
Whose duty is it to attend to my wants? My duty.
Who is responsible for my future state of being? I alone am responsible.
Who shields me from temptation? No one.
Who shields me from sorrow and suffering? No one.
Who shields me from pain and affliction? No one.
Who benefits from my toil and tribulation, my sorrow and suffering? Myself, if wise.
Who benefits from my temptations and afflictions, my sacrifices and austerities? Myself, if wise.
The point Len is that when you are faced with questions about the provenance of the Kolbrin you try to cunningly deride the conversation towards the merit of the personal paths of the people asking them. You simply do not know what path people are walking and certainly asking questions about the provenance of the Kolbrin's origin doesn't have anything to do with anyone's merits in life. You just can't expect to always go for the argument that people should focus more on the essence of the teachings and less about the specifics of where they came from. It just won't work, and besides most of us here already do the former anyway.
Let me make something clear here, I would still adhere to the teachings found within the Kolbrin even if I found that they’re a modern fabrication, because I find them worthy due to their own intrinsic merit and for the beneficial effects they produce. But certainly if I ever find undeniable evidence of fabrication, I would have a different outlook about it all.
And another clarification, I am open to look for the answers in ALL ways, granted that I am confident that they are based on logic, reason and solid arguments. But for me, the honesty of those offering a particular truth is as important as the truth itself. And I am ruthless when it comes to the truth.
I also find that those who say they have the "truth" often do, but it is obscured in terminology that differs from those others who have the "truth" as well... then too often that difference is what separates us and keeps us from seeing the "truth" unfiltered.
Also, those with a selfish agenda will use truth of one thing to cloak their own lies.
I think we can all agree that our conceptions of what the truth actually is are not as important as what we do to further the Divine Design. We may never know the whole truth, but there's certain thing we are able to know, and there's certain answers I will always look for because I deem them relevant.
That shouldn’t an obstacle for us to come together though, we’re all very lucid and civilized folks in here so lets continue our most interesting discussions and to learn from each other.
indeed - as it is stated that no one has all the answers and since free will is a huge part of our existence on Earth here, that also comes into play ... and perhaps explains many behaviors that are often deemed moral or ethical as to their value judgements.
We have to recognize the consequences of much of our behaviours as well as attitudes and how they interact and also affect others.
And vice versa without writing them off or ourselves at the same time.
The Kolbrin grants a system of thinking which allows individuals to logically assess what actions and behaviors further an evolutive path for humankind. I think this is out of question and will always make the Kolbrin an exceptional book. So exceptional that it creates a lot of controversy ;)
It's all good you know.
yes, Manuel the critical thinking aspect that is showcased is of innumerable value to folks. Rarely are people encouraged to question or discuss matters of a theological bent - if they are people are placed immediately in an us vs them mode - which does them no good. Critical thinking skills are sorely lacking in most schools nowadays - it is easier to just GO along with the flow - and not put your neck out for anything. People don’t want to take risks.
It's easier to either go with the flow or try to seek for antagonism, I am not interested in either, and I enjoy the company of likeminded individuals ;)
Based on logic, reason, and solid arguments…certainly necessary tools, but these are not enough by themselves to solve the issues you are discussing.
There are metaphysical methods that depend entirely on one’s personal path that I cannot fail to mention, among other items, as I’m being drilled. I’m not telling you anything different than I had to learn myself, so it might be worthwhile to hear a few words about personal methods that are required for personal confirmation.
And I do expect a few more spears coming my way until those throwing them are able to judge with reason Experience gained through metaphysical methods of a most personal nature.
There's no spears being thrown at you Len, my analogy regarding that Kolbrin quote was more directed to the fact that the spirit of people should always be actively and fearlessly inquisitive. I understand the point of needing another level of metaphysical experience to fully understand certain concepts and I most interested on what you have to share in these regards, whenever you feel like sharing. But that does not take anything away from the fact that in this group we have always focused both on the teachings found within the Kolbrin and also in its actual provenance, which to us remains a mystery. And this will continue to be so .
And it will continue to be so WITHOUT detracting at all from our deep interest, respect and appreciation of the teachings found within the Kolbrin and our personal embracing of them in our lives (according to each individual’s judgement and choice).
Manuel, have you ever considered that the “teachings found within” have a direct connection to their provenance? If not, perhaps you should, as my Kolbrin like “moralizing” has a direct connection with your queries of provenance.
Well of course, that's the initial assumption, but then there's still many questions left and the lingering possibility that things are not exactly as we've been told.
I wish to say however Leonard that you need to understand that for some people the situation with the Kolbrin may raise some intense emotions, more so taking into account the fact that, in all honesty, your answers sometimes leave much to be desired, even if for some reason you struggle to realize this.
Some people have spent many years putting lots of effort into researching this material, and your condescending tone regarding how the answers can only be attained by the spiritually awakened can be irritating. So understand that the antagonistic dynamics we ended up at may also be in part of your own responsibility.
I will ask you to try to avoid taking a “guru” stance when you discuss these matters because you see, some folks here do guide themselves through what is measurable physical evidence, and you have to respect this and be able to defend your arguments without the need to constantly allude to metaphysical retorts.
Manuel, please read over again the quotes I have taken out of the Foreword and Introduction to the Kolbrin. The compilers and publishers of the Kolbrin DO NOT claim historical accuracy or provenance, and it was ONLY released as a guide for moral, ethical, and metaphysical instruction. If you or others choose to read or take the Kolbrin in other ways than it was intended, that is your choice, and the frustration it leads to is also your own.
I have not said anything different, and should you choose to ignore or not take seriously my â€œmoralizingâ€, which are things not only contained within the Kolbrin itself but also contain mine and others key for finding provenance, I can assure you that you have reached the end of your search. Which is fine by me, it is your path. However, others may be assisted with what is required to reach the next step, in which case, being a public forum, those â€œmoralizingâ€ words are intended for them, not you.
Things are never “exactly” as you’re told, and nothing can be comprehended completely by the logical BRAIN alone, even more so when you consider spiritual, metaphysical, or moral matters.