Notes on the History of the Old Culdees

*This was originally posted on the link provided below, but deserves it’s own topic thread here:

Thanks for reposting this. On reading the forum rules, I thought I needed to edit my other post rather than add another thread. I have an ecopy of the Jamieson book and my outline of the key points in the book is a 26 page document.

I scanned a page in The Mabinogi an Clem of the “Old Gorsed Prayer”.

Thanks for all the work!

You only need to edit your old posts to add on if no one else has responded yet. This is considered double posting, or consecutive posting. Other people have responded, so you could have posted in the old thread, but this is a new topic anyway concerning the Culdees in particular.

The Jamieson book is past copyright, so it may be posted here in full… but may be a little long for a post. If you’d like to post it as an attachment (and your outline as well), attach PDF or Word files on an email you send me, and I’ll be able to post those attachments to the forum for people to download and read at their leisure.

Attached to this post are both John Jamieson’s book, A Historical Account of the Ancient Culdees of Iona, and djinnee’s notes on this history.

djinnee has kindly provided me with both, to share with everyone here. The file “culdee history” is Jamieson’s book, while the file “culdee theory” is djinnee’s write up.

Thanks djinnee!

So Kailedy means servant of God?

Partially… although, it would be more accurate to translate it to ‘Vassal of God’.

Further meanings may be read about below:

Wow, I’m loving all this Culdee history, going to memorize the old Gorsedd prayer.
Thanks guys.
Love and Light.

Elizabeth Elder-Hill has written on the early Culdee as well. I’m not sure if this publication is even available any more, but it certainly does have some interesting information concerning the original Culdees.

Lance, I’m thinking you meant Isabel Hill Elder? I have her book, “Celt, Druid & Culdee”. Paperback. I really enjoyed it. I have bookmarks all through the book. That’s a good sign how interesting I thought it was. I bought it online last year sometime. She caught my attention early on in the book by mentioning “Konig”, relating it to “Cunobelinus”, or King “Belinus”, the reigning King in Britain at the time of the Claudian invasion. Well that’s all it took to get me going. My mothers maiden name was Koning. Grandpa was a Koning, and Grandma a Dennehy. So many bells went off while reading that book it was uncanny. I have bookmarks every few pages. It’s a keeper!

The chapter on the Culdee is fascinating. Couple quotes…

"The first converts of the Culdees were the Druids. The Druids of Britain, embracing Christianity found no difficulty in reconciling the teaching of the Culdees or, "Judean Refugees", with their own teaching of the resurrection and inheritance of eternal life...

Christianity was a new thing in Asia, but there never was a time when Druids in Britain held not it’s doctrines…

There was no violent divorce between the new teaching and that of their own Druids, nor were they called upon to reverse their ancient faith as to lay it down for a fuller and more perfect revelation.

Think maybe the author protest a bit too much? I really want to date the Judean refugees to after 70 AD. She dates the refugees arriving in Britain around 37 AD. Maybe some arrived that early, spreading the news. Still think the most important ones arrived after 70 AD.

What information do you have that contradicts Elder’s research? Or what is your reasoning?

If the legends (and other historical documentation) surrounding Joesph of Arimathea founding the Keltic Church in Britain are true (and likewise what is stated in the Kolbrin and Kailedy), 37 AD would be the closer to the actual date… or else Joesph would be a very old man!!!

Perhaps you disagree with the Kolbrin here, or the legends, or the old historians pointing to this early date for the Keltic Church? I look forward to seeing evidence you may have that others may have missed…

I would also note that Druidism was in severe decline (some say dead) after 60 AD, following the Menai Massacre, in which the Romans ended up slaughtering most of the country’s Druidic priest class. Further, Keltic culture itself was shaken irretrievably to its foundations at this time when Boudica’s revolt failed, and the Romans gained complete dominance of Britain.

Druids meeting Christians, whose merging produced the Culdees, could hardly have happened at a time when the Druids had been wiped out, and Keltic culture itself was in chaos and decline.

Why would Judean refugees come to a land of turmoil recently subjected and despoiled by the Romans? The Kolbrin reasonably claims otherwise:

Here, the strangers, now called the Wise Ones, were free from the yoke of Rome and from the intolerance of the Jews. They were not subject to immoral customs and were among the right-living people, simple but pure in mind and body. Close by was a place for trading in metals, slaves, dogs and grain. Here, Ilyid built himself a house unlike any others, for it was square and in two parts, more stone than timber. This place was called Kwinad...

Ilyid is buried outside the forked path before the church, and on his tomb was written, “I brought Christ to the Britons and taught them. I buried Christ and now here my body is at rest.”

Reread the whole of this chapter, as well as the rest of the Britain Book. It claims Joesph came to Britain three years after the crucifixion of Jesus, and met with high Druid priests, and a British king, all of which did not exist past 60 AD, due to the Roman destruction and subjugation.

Looking at all this, it appears the Kolbrin confirms Elder’s research, or Elder (and others) confirms the Kolbrin rather. I very much look forward to what you have that contradicts all this…

My reply will take a bit of time. I look forward to defending my thoughts. I don’t take notes like I use to. I research mostly for myself these days. It’s like beating ones head against the wall more often than not to get anyone to see what they believed true, might just not be completely true, or it could be a twisted version of reality.

I have no personal quest to prove any book wrong. Each one has it’s reasons for being written when it was and why it was. What was written by man or channeled 50, 500 or 2,000 years ago may not apply today. Each depends on what message the author was trying to get everyone to see at that time in history and where that info originated. No book written by man is infallible. No book written by man isn’t prejudice. It’s only by opening oneself up to numerous opinions can one even hope to find the truth in any given situation. If you only search to prove your point, you will find it no doubt.

If it weren’t for The Kolbrin I would probably still be sleeping. My aim is not to disagree with the Kolbrin, or Elder but only to use the light from those books to see through the crack they created in the wall. Each opens a new door to explore, another piece of the puzzle.

No offense meant, Diane. It is just curious that you gave an opinion without any reason or evidence why. From my perspective and research, there is little to no reason that I can see for the date you gave. If there is, I would be most excited to lessen my ignorance. This is why I asked for how you came to this conclusion, so that you could possibly teach people here, myself included, what we may not know.

I’m not sure how this applies to the current topic. The question is not one of moral or social relevance, but of dates, and whether or not a notable person of history was at a given place.

Please explain how Joesph of Arimathea being in Britain after Jesus’ death may apply for certain times and places but not for others…

It is either a fiction, or it is not. But you seem to be saying it could be both. Please elaborate…

Thanks for that Diane. You are quite right, and that is the title I couldn’t remember at the time of writing.