The "Reality" of the Universe

Manu posted two related quotes from different sources:

"What is “real” anyway? The things we call real, like all matter we can observe, is made of atoms which themselves are made of 99.999999% SPACE.

If the atom is the size of a of a sports stadium, then the nucleus is the size of a fly in the center and the electrons are tiny tiny gnats circling the stadium.

We are vastly made of and bathing in an infinite field of energy that we call “empty” space even though we have found that space is not empty at all, it is filled with energy vibrating at incredibly high frequency: the quantum foam, the aether, the plenum, vacuum fluctuations, the zero point field, in an infinite holofractographic universe…

By understanding the structure and dynamics of space, we can better understand the entire universe."

Post by Jamie Janover

"Though man cannot perceive the greatness above him, because of its greatness, neither can he see the smallness beneath him, because of its smallness. From the greatest came the smallest and from the smallest came creation, and within the smallest is greatness and power. For the smallest is far less than the mote, yet it is the upholder of the universe and it shines like the sun beyond the darkness. It lies out towards the edge of the reach of man’s thought. "

From the Book of Gleanings in the Kolbrin.

To which I responded:

Very nice mix of text and understanding of the nature of physical reality!

So, this was cool! As you posted this last night, I was reading: Stobaeus ~ An extract from the discourses of Hermes to his son Tat. It reads as follows:

"But as to Void, which most people think to be a thing of great importance, I hold that no such thing as Void exists, or can have existed in the past, or ever will exist. For all several parts of the cosmos are wholly filled with various qualities and forms, each having its own shape and magnitude; and thus the cosmos as a whole is full and complete. Of these bodies, some are larger, some are smaller; and they differ in greater or lesser firmness of their substance. Those of them which are of firmer substance are more easily seen, as are also those which are larger; whereas small bodies, and those which are of less firm substance, are almost or quite invisible, and it is only by the sense of touch we are made aware of their existence. Hence many people have come to think that these bodies do not exist and that there are void spaces; but that is impossible. And the like holds good of what is called ‘the extramundane,’ if indeed any such thing exists; for I hold that not even the region outside the cosmos is void, seeing that it is filled with things apprehensible by thought alone, that is, with things of like nature with its own divine being. And so our cosmos also, the sensible universe as it is called, is wholly filled with bodies, and living bodies, suited to its character. The shapes presented by these bodies to our sight differ in magnitude; some of these shapes a very large; others a very small, when the distance of the objects makes them appear small to us; and some things, on account of their extreme minuteness or tenuity, are wholly invisible to us, and are consequently supposed by many people to be nonexistent.

And so, you must not call anything void without saying what the thing in question is void of, as when you say that a thing is void of fire or the like. For it is possible for a thing to be void of such things as these, and it may consequently come to seem void; but the thing that seems void, however small it be, cannot possibly be empty of spirit/wind and of air." (Stobaeus) Hermes Trismegistus

I don’t normally like to post quotations, but this is a pretty cool quotation thread. The following also comes from The Kolbrin.

Excerpt from page 337 of THE KOLBRIN: The Book of Lucius, Chapter One: The Spheres of Existance (Emphasis and parenthesis is mine):

“The Supreme Spirit contains the essences of all the perfections, and these flow out from Him in a form of vitality which is called The Holy Spirit. The Sphere of The Holy Spirit surrounds the Sphere of The Supreme Spirit and around this again, and below it, is the Sphere of Matter and Mortality…

The activity of The Supreme Spirit in the Highest Sphere is unceasing, and this alone maintains the Universes of Matter. The BASIS OF MATTER IS AN OUTFLOW OF ENERGY from The Supreme Spirit, which forms a kind of FRAMEWORK SOLIDIFYING AT ITS OUTER EDGE. The three Spheres comprise the whole, NO PART OF WHICH IS DEVOID OF THE VITALITY originating within The Supreme Spirit. So the statement that The Supreme Spirit is in all and all is in The Supreme Spirit is true, though He does not manifest in the Sphere of obscurity, illusion and imperfection. This does not mean that the Supreme Spirit’s essence does not manifest here, or that the Sphere of Matter and Mortality is beyond His reach. These conditions serve a specific purpose.

Nothing, except The Supreme Spirit, can have a real, self-contained and independent existence. This does not mean that nothing else is real, and by ‘ILLUSION’ IS MEANT DECEPTION BY THE SENSES, WHICH INTERPRET FALSELY. MAN IS DELUDED BY HIS SENSES and so cannot distinguish the real from the unreal…

Their greatness (The Sphere of Matter and Mortality) exceeds the bounds of man’s most daring imagination, and even if man could penetrate through to their limits, he would still find The Supreme Spirit veiled and hidden.

The Sphere of The Holy Spirit is divided into Subspheres and the Sphere of Matter and Mortality IS LIKEWISE DIVIDED. The Supreme Ruler of the Sphere of The Holy Spirit is The Holy Spirit, and The Supreme Ruler of the Sphere of Matter and Mortality is Nature. So all the material universes are governed by one set of laws called The Law of Nature. Nature is the effect and manifestation of the activity of The Holy Spirit operating in matter where reality is relative and not absolute.”

Great quote, Lucious is a fantastic Kolbrin book. I am inclined to think that we're inside some sort of mental environment and existence in matter is basically just a very persistent dream. Thus why you find matter is basically empty at it most basic levels. Beyond the apparently solid dream there's only mind devoid of matter. This dream is being upheld by the power of this mind which apparently has some vested interests in it.

That’s why Lucius says you won’t ever find God regardless of how far you travel in the sphere of Matter. Probably our cosmos is also spherical somehow and if you kept going you’d be back at the point of start. You will never find the source there because this is just a mental creation which lies outside of it. All this universe we perceive is being projected from somewhere else as a mental fabrication of some infinitely powerful mind devoid of physical body. A mind which exists beyond matter. Maybe it’s being projected from a black hole?

If you had enough mental power to dream a coherent dream, one which was persistant and not random and chaotic, and you created some individual in that dream (I’ve dreamt with people who I had never seen in my life and who seemed to have their own unique personalities for instance), how could that individual find you (the creator)?

The individual you created in your dream wouldn’t be looking for your body, because your body is not dreaming him/her, he/she would be looking for your mind. But then he/she would already be in your mind, just in another compartiment of it which felt like a separate, solid world(just like dreams may feel like sometimes). When it comes to our minds, not to our brains mind you(no pun intended :wink: ), there’s no clear delimitations like in the physical world we perceive. I don’t think I’d even know how to explain the way capacities are distributed within our minds. The idea of spatial/temporal limits begins to lose all sense when we speak about mental existence.

There are also minds within minds, but that is not the whole of it…

And… matter is not ‘empty’, but is upheld, composed of, and framed by matrices of energetic (not the best word) spheres… and on and so forth…

Black holes are still within the Sphere of Matter and Mortality, although these do contain some profound secrets… Regardless, they are still ‘out there’…

Lucius also says,

“Do not concern yourselves overmuch regarding the nature of The Supreme Spirit. He is a Being incomprehensible to those with only the limited faculties of the Lower Spheres. He exists within a divine principle upon which speculation is impossible, since it lies beyond the limits of mortal conception. Only the truly Illuminated Ones, the noble Soulspirits, can approach the border of understanding, for they can see from afar. The treasures of His sanctuary are the ultimates of Love, Beauty, Perfection, Truth, Justice, Compassion and Goodness…

Man has a material sounding board called the brain, which means a drumskin, and this is very apt. However, if it is battered with impure desires or taken over by worldliness it thickens and becomes a barrier against the spiritual forces. The brain, made dense with insensitivity and calloused by wickedness, forms a door which closes out all things of the spirit and becomes the servant of the senses. It no longer admits the light and what light does penetrate becomes disguised and distorted into gloom. The door to the soulspirit becomes overgrown with weeds and brambles, the material and spiritual are separated by an immovable barrier and the Soulspirit slumbers while the body decays.

While man turns his soulspirit outwards, towards the illusive and deceptive world of matter and mortality, seeking fulfilment there, so long will he be unaware of his greater being. Here he will never find true contentment, and cut off from companionable communication with his true self he will remain restless and dissatisfied. He will be always seeking for something, though he knows not what.

Those who say they can find The Supreme Spirit through means outside of themselves WILL SEEK IN VAIN, what they will find will be worthless pebbles, the real jewel lies within. Only when the unreal is revealed for what it is and penetrated in consciousness, can the real come into sight. This can be proved beyond any dispute by PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, but FEW CARE TO PAY THE PRICE FOR SUCH KNOWLEDGE. The waters of illumination cannot be gathered on the heights of arrogant self-assurance, or on the hilltop of prejudice. Neither can they be drawn from the valley of apathy or the dale of agnosia.”

Excerpt from pages 356-358 of THE KOLBRIN: The Book of Lucius, Chapter Fourteen: The Last Forest Teachings

This is why it is important to concentrate on the (supposed) empty space between matter, which resets conditioned thought concerning unexamined assumptions about reality.

But alongside this, and more importantly, one must focus WITHIN! Meditation, prayer, ritual, and other similar disciplines and practices give the answer True, just as it was given to Lucius!

But who is willing to pay that price?

Few indeed…

The mission in this realm seems to be to search for the faculty of perceiving truth and reality. The trick is that it's very hard to be so inclined when the physical reality constantly presents so many sensorial distractions.

Well physical reality or maybe illusion of a physical reality would be more apt?

Well, the Kolbrin says the physical ‘illusion’ is only our perception of such. (That which is physical has a ‘reality’, but not what is commonly assumed by the vast majority of us.) And I heartily agree with The Kolbrin in this. Illusion is within our minds, reinforced by the attachment to the senses and outer distractions.

With practice, these distractions are lessened and cleared away over time; the struggle made easier by strengthening the spiritual muscles, so to speak.

But to even begin dedicated practice is a simple matter of CHOICE.

Most often the outer distractions are more appealing. And while many might say we most want Reality and Truth, actions prove otherwise…

One may ‘feel’ they want something, but if it is not strong enough to initiate the actions and sacrifices to acquire it, the balance of desire truly weighs in the favor of apathy, or other lesser distractions.

This conversation reminded me to this. Here you go, check it out when you can

Dream theater take the time with lyrics

"You’re fighting the weight of the world
And no one can save you this time
Close your eyes
You can find all that you need in your mind

I close my eyes
And feel the water rise around me
Drown the beat of time
Let my senses fall away
I can see much clearer now, I’m blind"

That particular dream theater album was very esoteric. Afterwards they strayed from that kind of brilliance.

Dream Theater - 08 Learning to Live

“Spread before you is your soul
So forever hold the dreams within our hearts
Through nature’s inflexible grace
I’m learning to live”

This one from that same album is like one of my most influential pieces of music in my life, both musically and lyrically.

[b]This discussion splits off into other threads here:

and here:[/b]

So what if there is an element of imposed delusion in this reality.
Are we not incarnated into this existence to experience this reality, delusion or not ?
So what point, in the expense of all this energy, identifying a reality we cannot , and should not, change ?
Accept existence for what it is, and get on with the job.
My opinion.

Agreed, Sha’ul! A perfect, omniscient view of complete reality is not possible or available for us here. These are necessary conditions for what we need to learn and experience here. I would say that one should do their utmost to penetrate past as much delusion as one is able, and then act on what we think is best in our limited understanding. These type of actions are trial and error in the dark, whose results shine a little more light and understanding through each successive experience. This model is a very simple description of the Soulspirit’s slow evolution, awakening, advancement, etc.

Forgive me. I mean to disrespect.

Deception Misconception, Error or Reality.
What shall it be. Unknowable?
There is symmetry in the universe. From atomic particles, to the solar systems, to galaxies, nebulae, the universe an infinite cosmos. Repeating, but each piece is unique.
All snowflakes are made of snow but no two are the same.

I am trillions of cells each one completely unique and yet essential to my being.
What explains this symmetry?
An immense amount of information in a single atom.
The DNA assembled at conception. Each cell unique and working ceaselessly for my survival.
A miracle and then …CONSCIOUSNESS.
A self aware being with imagination that creates that which never existed before?
Creation of something from “nothing”, from imagination.
I am in awe.
Why did the Creator bring life into this reality?
I made up a story;
He is all one and alone in the perfect completeness of everything. The perfection of design came from the One. And an idea. Create life, with limitless potential and Free Will. In Infinite time and space wait and watch. Maybe…one day man will evolve in the image of his Creator. Not “made” for that would be only a robot or a mirror. No. This man evolved from humble beginnings but with free will. Free to be right and wrong, good or evil. Free Will. No limits. A free man that will evolve. But, not directed. Free for good or bad. Direction has to come from within, from free will, to choose and to love. Then hopefully one day given infinite time, to face the Creator, to say thank You, and then to say hello, long time to be alone, let’s be friends.
Sometimes my imagination runs wild…

Sorry, it didn’t work. :stuck_out_tongue:

I really like your story, and it mostly jives with my understanding of God and the universe. However, what about the ‘limits’ of natural law, cause and effect, karma, suffering, and death? How do these ‘limits’, laws, and finite constraints fit within your story?

Limits are in perception. Cause and effect are bounded by what is known. In an infinite reality if it is possible then it is probable. My mind can not really understand infinite. But my heart says it is so. Which shall I believe? Well, first it would be good to understand “who am I ?”.
I heard someone said a question that could not be answered was a meaningless question. I disagree, maybe it cannot be answered yet. If anything is infinite it would be our concept of time, but time is a creation of our mind. Without memory time is without meaning.
So I have not answers. I pray for the right questions and for now… the priceless gift of being incarnate in this place and time.

Limits are in perception, so what thing, consciousness, or entity is without or beyond perception? And, how is this possible (to be without or beyond perception)?

As for cause and effect, this Law operates in nature even when it is not seen, even when the effect cannot be traced by some to its cause. The plane in which we live and operate is governed by cause and effect, whether of not it is recognized. How was this Law established, and what caused the limits inherent in our perceptions? God? … Ourselves? … Something else???

I very much like your questions… and your attitude, and feel they are very much on the right track! ;D

I think i would have to agree with the Book of Lucius as you quoted Len when its says;

Those who say they can find The Supreme Spirit through means outside of themselves WILL SEEK IN VAIN, what they will find will be worthless pebbles, the real jewel lies within. Only when the unreal is revealed for what it is and penetrated in consciousness, can the real come into sight.

Although i do think his terms are to absolute when he says they will seek in vain because all seeking is useful and should yield at least something and to a child or some lovers a pebble can be more valuable than any jewel. I do agree with the general principle that looking at ourselves can reveal something of The Supreme Spirit and even the reality in which we live. We’re born, we live, we grow old, we die, we get angry and we even fall in love. We do live in a world of forces, quite close to and intricately woven into our lives, that we do not and perhaps cannot understand. Yet we function and even sometimes prosper.

I am inclined to think that sometimes you have to hit your finger with a hammer or something to realise what reality is! But that is a bleak view with Freudian undertone. Considering that he mentioned about how, as children, we all come to know our suffering and are shaped by it but let us not forget that there may be more than one reality! The reality of our own experience is quite uncommon to the reality of an atom? The reality of pleasure is different to the reality of pain? I think it is good to keep in mind even that we don’t even know fully the reality of the atom, in my best example there may be more things to add to the periodic table or that we don’t know if an electron is a wave or a particle?

Well i can speak to that! I know I’ve felt my way to a few other lesser distractions now and then! But at the end of the day whatever reality is, when it’s beating you senseless over the head your not going to be worrying about what the hell it is! Maybe we can just shout reality is experience and run away! I would much rather talk about unreality any way ;D

I love the bit in an epistemological discussions when everyone ends at the same point? What do we know? We know nothing! We are air heads! We are stuck on a planet of demented chimpanzees who are incapable of absolute knowledge or reason as a collective mass and their pissed about it! AAARRRRGGHHHHH!!!

And on top of that this guy is telling me the people in my dreams are real people?? AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH! TWILIGHT ZONE! ;D On that note someone should really write a song and call it “dream people”.


Nice thread. I want to throw in some quotes, too.

“As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter”


“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”

Exactly, but

“It is not the possession of truth, but the success which attends the seeking after it, that enriches the seeker and brings happiness to him”

all quotes by Max Planck

Edit: “We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning.” Werner Heisenberg

Well I will go to bed now because I feel the madness rising

Edit 2: “Before the beginning there was only one consciousness, that of The Eternal One whose nature cannot be expressed in words. It was The One Sole Spirit, The Self Generator which cannot diminish. The Unknown, Unknowable One brooding solitary in profound pregnant silence.”

The Kolbrin, Book of creation, chapter 1

Edit 3: Its all good eventually.But you are right Len, we have to do something about this fucked up shit going on here. Pardon my French.

Edit 4: And thank you very much indeed for stirring me up!