A Debate on Miscegenation (Race Vs. Spirit)

There is no miscegenation in this particular story, and can relate to who we are now… a reversal of this story is one chance for a re-balancing, very definitely within our grasp.

Excerpt from The Book of Gleanings, Chapter 1:

“Woman knew that though man could subdue her with
his strength, he was weak in his desire for her. In his
weakness lay her power and in those days it was used
wisely, it was the foundation of the people. The race was
good, but because of its goodness it was destined to be
smitten, for only the good vessel is worthy of the fire. It
is burnt, that its shape may be set and its design endure.
The path of peace is not the path of progress.

The people were not governed by princes or by
statutes, but wise men sat in council. They had only a
code of conduct and a moral tradition binding each one
to the others in a symmetrical web of life. Those who
transgressed the code and tradition were deemed to be
unworthy of life among the people and were banished
into exile.

Among The Children of Men woman was a chattel.
She was subject to man, an object for the satisfaction of
his lust and the servant to supply his needs. He subdued
her and kept her in servitude, for her betrayal of man was
known even among them, and it was never forgotten, nor
could it be forgiven.

The Children of God valued woman highly and
protected her from crudeness and cruelty, and her standing
was such that she was awarded only to the most
worthy of men. They held her in respect, for to them she
was the fountain of life within their race, the designer of
its future. Yet even so they had to restrict her, for she was
inclined to be wilful and unheeding of her responsibility.

The people flourished and, from generation to
generation, grew in stature and comeliness. They were
the rising tidewaters of mankind surging towards its
destiny. The right of a man to a mate was decided
according to his standard of thought, his uprightness, the
manner in which he upheld the code and tradition and his
dealings with man and woman. The fittest men could
choose a mate among all woman, but lesser men could
seek only among the less desirable, according to a known
standard. To some, having only the outward appearance
of men, no mate was given, while the noblest men could
take additional ones from among the ranks of lesser
women. Thus, the race ever tended to improve, to accord
with its design.

The council of the people knew well the strength of
man’s desire for woman. The force of the urge was not
wasted, for their forbears had harnessed it to the vehicle
which carried their race to greatness above others. The
race which could properly channel the forces contained
within itself was ready to control the forces beyond itself.
The greatest forces man can harness to his benefit are
those lying within himself, but the underlying strength of
the people lay in the morality of its women, for this was
the strength that governed, because it was the safeguard
for something of value. Men strive for gold, and value it
because it is something not easily attained. If gold could
be gathered by the handful, men would scorn it, its power
is in its scarcity.

Then it happened that one man became arrogant in
the strength of his manhood and pride of place, his
thoughts inclined towards himself rather than towards
the welfare of the people. He scorned the old ways,
declaring the code and tradition an unnecessary burden
laid on the backs of men. He said, “Why should we carry
the burden of things which have come down to us from
our fathers? How do we know they walked with
wisdom? How can we say that what was good for them
is good for us?” Because of his unruly speech and
wayward ways, the council banished him for a time and
had he remained apart, his heart would have been
humbled in wisdom. But among The Children of God
there was a woman, one of the most desirable and fair,
who interceded for him so he might return to dwell
among them, it being in their code that the wayward
could always regain their place.

The woman sought him out in the wilderness and,
coming upon him, said, “Though, because of my heart,
you appear to me as the finest of men, in the eyes of the
elders you are unworthy to claim me. Therefore, I have
spoken for you; now come, go before them yourself and
say the wilderness has changed your ways. By so doing
you will find favour with the council and, perchance, I
may become your mate. The strength and courage I
admire place you high in the regard of men and in favour
with the elders, but your wayward and inconsiderate
spirit is unworthy of your body. Though you find favour
in the eyes of the young and foolish women who see only
the outwardness of your body and thereby become more
foolish, the eyes of the wise women see your naked spirit
and are not deceived. Therefore, disregard the glances of
foolish maidens and carry yourself well. Act in such
manner that you find favour in the sight of the wise
women”. And, said she, “Am I not Maya, the most
desirable of women, one whom all men seek? Yet
will I remain reserved only for you, therefore be not
unworthy of me”.

The man came out of the wilderness and wastelands.
He went before the council of wise women and said,
“What must I do that I may have this woman for a mate?
For I desire her above all things, even above my own life.
For her I will become the most worthy of men among the
people, her standard being high I may not possess her
otherwise”. The wise women answered him, saying,
“For so long shall you conduct yourself in this manner”,
and they set him a time and a task. That it should be well,
the task was to be done with heart as well as deed, but the
man accepted it gladly, his heart not in that day but in the
days to come. The council and the elders said, “what the
wise women have done is good, it will be well and to the
people’s benefit”.

The man rose manfully to the task and was
magnificent in his manhood, his new ways gladdening
the hearts of all the maidens, many of whom were
disturbed by strange stirrings within their breasts. Among
these was one less comely and desirable whose heart
burned hotly for him, her thoughts resting upon him
continually; but she knew that in his sights she was of
little account. Her name was Lila.

It happened that, arising early one day, she saw the
man depart into the forest by the swampland, going about
his task, and she took counsel with herself and followed
him. She came upon the man while he rested in a place
of solitude and approaching spoke softly, saying, "It is
your servant Lila. O my Lord, are you not weary with the
task burdening your days, also that you lack companionable
gladness to lighten it? Where is she who set the load
upon your strong back? Where is my kinswoman who,
without doubt, is more comely and very much more
desirable than I and therefore a very fitting reward for
your heavy labours? Does she rest in the shade or is she
gathering fruit back in the gardens? Without doubt her
thoughts are with you, but is she not unduly hardhearted
in that she fails to comfort you, for is it not in the nature
of woman to come to man and lighten his burden with her
softness? Is it not in the nature of woman to be yielding
and submissive, that man may rejoice in his strength? Is
it, perhaps, that despite her loveliness the heart of this
woman of your desire is not the heart of a woman? Is it
like the mock orange, sweet to look at but bitter to bite?

“Or is her heart in the keeping of the elders, that she
prefers the ways of the old to the ways of the young?
What has she done to you, has she not humiliated your
manliness by harnessing it like an ox to the customs of
the people? Can it be right that the decrees of old men
long dead should come between living man and woman?
Is it not more fitting that the customs of men submit to the
law of Her who gave us our natures? This desirable
woman is yours, providing you toil and wait. She is
yours, but not without conditions. She does not come
without reservations as a woman should, but like a man
who comes to an ass bridle in hand. Alas, that I lack the
loveliness which places the yoke upon you, but beneath
I lack nothing and am as much a woman as any. My heart
burns for you with a flame that comes nigh to consuming
my body. Take me, accept my humble offering. I give
all freely, I will be yours without any conditions. O my
Lord, which of us women truly offers the most? She who
concedes nothing, or I who will even be accursed by God
and men for your sake? I who am nothing in your sight
require no sacrifice from you on my behalf. I ask nothing
and I offer all a woman can”. Then Lila knelt at the feet
of the man and placed her head on his knee.

The man was sorely troubled in his body and he
wrestled with it, but his spirit brought before his eyes
the vision of the more desirable maiden, and he was
strengthened. He arose and said, “Begone and tempt me
no more!”

Then Lila departed and went her way, but within
herself she brooded and in the course of days her thoughts
hatched a dark scheme. She mixed a forbidden potion
from herbs and, putting it into a pitcher of water with
honey, took it to the man as he toiled in the heat of the
declining day. Seeing her, the man said, "Wherefore
have you come again?’ And she answered him, saying
“My Lord, your servant brings a much lesser offering,
one you need not fear as you did the greater one, a humble
gift of refreshment”. The day being hot and the toil
arduous, the gift was not unwelcome. The man drank
heavily from the pitcher and because of the potion his
spirit slept while the beast entered his body in strength.

When the fire of his passion was quenched by the
waters of lust, his spirit returned and he reviled the
woman, saying, “What have you wrought? Would you
destroy me in this manner?” The woman replied, “The
deed is yours, my Lord, for you are a man and I am a
woman”. Then the man became afraid, for he knew the
code and custom. He became angry after the manner of
frightened men and shouted, "Begone from my sight,
you viper, lest I crush you!’ Lila answered quietly, “My
Lord, why be wrathful or afraid without cause? For this
thing shall be a secret between us, none will ever know
of it. Behold, my Lord, are you not free again and the
yoke removed from your neck? Now you may know the
joys a woman can give, without submitting to the task;
therefore, take your ease, for life is good to you”.

The words of the woman were not sweet to the ears
of the man, for he was filled with remorse for what had
been done. He said, "You are not the maiden of my
tender desires, in whom my heart delighted and for
whom I gladly undertook the task. What now of her
whose beauty compares with the glory of the sun, whose
gentleness caresses as the sunbeam, beside whose brightness
you are no more than a gloomy shadow? Lila
replied, “She is indeed as the sun, you may worship from
afar but never touch lest you be burnt and destroyed”.

“I am the woman of your body whom your flesh has
chosen. What has this other woman done for you? Did
she not sharpen the sword on which you cut yourself? If
one lights a fire among reeds, knowing a man sleeps
there, who is to blame for his burning? The fire, he who
lit it or the reeds? It is beneath your manliness to turn on
me thus, am I not shamed for your sake? And who among
women would invite the wrath of gods and men as I have
done? Be content with the wrong your lust has already
wrought. This is an evil deed you have committed, but
because we are now united in the flesh no harm shall
befall you through me”.

Thenceforth, among the people they went their
separate ways, but flesh called to flesh, bringing them
furtively together in secret places. Each dwelt with the
reproachful whispers of their spirit, and each walked in
the shadow of fear because of the code and tradition.

Now, the elders were not without shrewdness and
they saw that the man was no longer diligent in the task
and had returned to his former ways. Also he avoided the
eyes of Maya and was no longer reserved with women,
having sampled forbidden fruit he now sought other
varieties. He was not a man with an end in view towards
which he strove, his bearing was not that of a free man.
The glances between the man and the woman, and their
uneasiness, were not difficult to interpret.

The elders and wise women said among themselves,
“Such is the manner of those carrying a burden in their
hearts, whose shadowy love is a feeble furtive thing
blooming shamefully in dark and hidden places”. Therefore,
they set a watch on the pair. The watch came upon
them as they lay together in nakedness upon their skins
and mocked them with ribaldry, for their passion was
profane and a thing for jest. It was a fungus upon the tree
of love.

They were brought before the high council, which
was the council of elders, and the council of wise women,
which questioned them, saying, “Wherefore have you
done evil unto us?” The man answered, “The woman put
my spirit to sleep with an evil brew, and my body became
weak because of my manhood”. They replied, “Truly
you have little manhood now and are a lesser man
because of this woman”.

The woman stood up before the high council and
answered them boldly, “Am I then the stronger of the
two? Can I lift the biggest stone or run the fastest race?
Do not the strong always prevail against the weak, and is
not this man the strongest among men? Is this even a
matter for your concern? For in what way have we
caused harm to any but ourselves? Shall we be punished
for that which concerns us two alone and wrongs no

The high council replied, “The deeds of any person
affecting the lives of others are the concern of others.
Though it were done in secret between yourselves, were
not the effects displayed in your eyes for all to see? Does
the man serve the people better because of this thing, or
does he serve them less well? Has something been added
to the people, or has something been taken away? Have
not the people lost?”

“Therefore, is not that which you did the concern of
the people and not of yourselves alone? The deed
of itself was not wrong, except in the manner of its
accomplishment. A woman who places no value on
herself steals something from all women, for they are
then less valued in the eyes of men. Would men value
gold were it gathered by the wayside? Above all this,
what of God-given love? Have you elevated or degraded
its means of expression among men and women? Among
people who value gold above all else, he who debases or
adulterates it commits a wrong against them. Here,
where love is valued above all else and woman honoured
as its custodian, those who debase it are regarded

“We dwell in a pleasant place, amid peace and plenty,
an inheritance from our fathers. The Children of Men
have inherited the wastelands. Are our fathers less wise
than theirs, that the customs of our fathers should be
spurned? What you have done relates to your two selves
and by your two selves shall your punishment be carried
out. This is not a punishment for any wrong done to us,
for we are old and it affects us little. We punish because
we have a duty to the young, to the unborn of our race.
We have an even greater duty to the hallowed things
which inspire mankind and enthrone man above the

“Your wrongdoing affects no one man or woman, yet
it affects all men and women, and if left unheeded would
not be without effect on children yet unborn. The code
and tradition is the pillar of our people, and the pillar may
not be struck with impunity. Though it be strong and one
blow will not damage it, many blows will bring
down even the stoutest pillar. A blow left unheeded
encourages another. A deed disregarded is a deed

“A people can be judged by the things it punishes and
the things it permits. The swine revels in filth and
therefore attacks anyone who enters his pen. Were we
wholly of the Earth, we need only protect earthly things”.

“Thus we banish you for ever from among us, unless
in your old age you are permitted, in mercy, to return”.

In this manner were the man and woman banished
from the tilled land to wander the wilderness beyond.
They dwelt in a cavern in the wasteland, against the outer
border of the tilled land, and they ate weeds and wild
creatures. There they were in a place defended from
hostile men and made safe from ambushes. In the first
days of their banishment the man was wrathful against
the woman and spoke to her spitefully, saying, “Like a
lamp that gives no light you are a woman without
womanly virtue, no longer deserving of the honoured
treatment accorded women of our race. You spoke truly
when you said that I am strong and you are weak. So be
it, henceforth your weakness shall be my strength; no
longer will the weakness of man be the strength of
woman and the backbone of a people clinging to things
without substance. Henceforth, I am obligated to no one
and owe a duty to none but myself. Man is weak only in
his desire for woman, but the weakness of woman shall
henceforth assure satisfaction of the desire”.

So the man subdued the woman after the fashion of
The Children of Men; she was the wife who ministered
unto him, saying, “My Lord, I am but a woman and your

The beast of the wastelands were the keepers of the
woman and she was in bondage to the barrenland, for the
wilderness was beyond reach of the waters, a place of
desolation yielding only weeds and thorns. The man
hunted afield for wild creatures while the woman delved
for roots, seeking sustenance among the weeds.

Thus it happened that one day, being overcome with
hunger, the woman went among the reeds growing on the
edge of the tilled land, for flowering plants grew there,
the roots of which could be eaten. While engaged in
gathering she was seen by a husbandman tilling the
fields, who, coming upon her stealthily, said, “Woman I
see you, are you not the one who was banished? If so the
custom decrees you will have to die, for it is forbidden to
re-enter the fertile land, having been cast out”.

Then the woman, being still in the water, loosened
her girdle and, letting down her hair, said, “Honoured I
may no longer be, perhaps die I must, but am I not still a
woman while I live? If you see me otherwise than as a
woman who can please a man by the ways of women,
then I say you cannot be a man. Yes, I am the woman
your brother seduced, the frail victim of his lust. Perhaps
it is better that I die quickly by your hand than starve
slowly in the wasteland. Death can hurt me no more than
life which has revealed me to the evil of men. Let me die
now for the wrongdoing of your brother”. So saying she
came out of the water.

The husbandman did not slay, but instead he dallied
with her until the evening. The woman said, ere he
departed, “This shall be a secret between us, for there is
none other nearby to see us here. Give me food, that my
flesh may be firm and my heart gladdened, that I may
come often to this place”.

Thus, in the days that followed the woman went
many times to the waters and in other places where there
were other men. Therefore, she no longer had to delve
for roots, nor did she toil in the wilderness.

Then The Children of God banished other men into
the wastelands because of the woman, and the man,
seeing how this came about, said, “Is my affliction
because of you never to end?” The woman answered,
“My Lord, this thing I did for your sake; see these others,
are they not outcasts in the wilderness, men without a
chief to rule over them or a hand to guide? Gather them
together, that they may hunt for you and serve you, rule
over them and become powerful. What I have done I
have done for you alone. To your strength will be added
their strength, and the loss of the people in fertile lands
will thus become your gain. What is there that strength
cannot obtain? If your desire is for other women, will not
strength obtain them? Therefore, revile me not, because
I have now placed in your hands the means to that which
you desire”.

“Now I say to you, and speak truly of things only a
woman can know, that you are a better man than those
who live bound to the tilled lands, whose women secretly
despise them for their servility to the code and tradition”.

The man was stirred up by these words and went out
and about to the others, approaching them, saying,
“Behold, we have been cast out because we have
followed the ways of men according to the nature of men.
Our manhood is good within us, let it therefore assert
itself so our strength may be greater”.

So it came about that the men who were outcasts
entered the fertile tilled land stealthily at night time,
burning the houses and overthrowing the water towers,
saying, “Let this land rejoin the wilderness”.

They slew menfolk and carried the women and
children away. They stole sheep, goats and cattle. Then
they withdrew to the fastnesses of the wastelands. There
they built an encampment and fortified it about with
walls and ditches, and they made war upon The Children
of Men and prevailed against them. They ruled their
women sternly and made them chattels, buying and
selling them like cattle. When man said “Come”, the
woman came, and when he said “Go”, she went. On her
yielding back and on her submissive head he dissipated
his wrath, on her servile body he satisfied his lust.

Lila was a true daughter of the woman who betrayed
the first race of men. It is written of her that when her
sons grew to manhood, she caused then to kill and eat
their father, so they might gain lifelong strength and

Man kept woman in bondage, for he knew from his
own knowledge of her ways that she was not to be
trusted. Henceforth, she could not walk freely among
men, for they knew that though woman was weak and
man strong, by womanly guile she could exploit his
weakness. Among the outcast people and The Children
of Men woman was subject to man, and he imposed his
will upon her and dominated her.

In this manner woman wrought her own downfall and
the destruction of those who held her in high regard. Her
charms she cast at the feet of those who trampled them
underfoot. Woman was not yet fitted to be the free
guardian of the portals of life. She was never wise
enough to choose the fathers of the race, for she was ruled
by womanly waywardness, not by wisdom.”

Well the miscegenation part is at the beginning of the chapter.

Yes… and that showed that the Children of God attained a high culture even after the miscegenation! And this story should help to inform our PRESENT condition.

Well I suspect Diane was right when she said that probably the intermixing was between Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal back in ancient times. But many more intermixings would ocurr afterwards. Anyway I hope you don't think I was condemning the mixing of races, however the Kolbrin does explicitly say that keeping the race of the children of God pure is desirable:

"“This is the way things shall be with those who aspire to godhood. They must follow only the paths which I have shown through the words of My interpreters. The unfolding spirit residing in those who have the blood of The Children of God and the greatness that dwells in men shall be magnified in the blood of their children. Their wisdom shall be greatly multiplied, if the tie of blood be strong. As good wine become bad if diluted overmuch, so is greatness in the blood of man. There is a virtue in the blood of those whose forbears were The Children of God, and if two people having this blood marry, then this virtue is increased in their children, so it is greater than either parent. There is a law of inheritance from which no man is exempt, for man is governed by the laws of earthly creatures as well as by greater laws. Is not the best ram chosen to sire the new flock? So let women choose the best among men that they can and let men choose the best among women, and they who heed My words will know which is the best. Let the truly great ones rule”.

Make of that what you will.

Manuel, of what different races were Maya, Lila, and the man in this story?

Today, are the Children of God and the Children of Men to be found in a particular race? No, today they are found in the blood of those who know God or do not know God, found scattered among all races. The miscegenation occurring in our times is of a spiritual nature, not to be discerned with the physical eyes, but the spiritual eye. This is the meaning of the quote you just posted.

Hmmmm sorry but I disagree with you on that, that quote is not talking about some spiritual bloodline. I've heard that argument by certain Christian groups as well, but unfortunately it only seems to be a way to thwart scripture to fit modern standards.

" There is a virtue in the blood of those whose forbears were The Children of God, and if two people having this blood marry, then this virtue is increased in their children, so it is greater than either parent"

You know it gets more messy when you start asking who were these bloodlines :wink:

You misunderstand me… The blood of the Children of God and the Children of Men are in all races now… Again I ask you, of what different races were Maya and Lila?

The Maya and Lila story is one of a particular society and it could be a fable. Also it doesn't have to do with the story of Fanvar which is the original fall story in the Kolbrin, and in which again it speaks undeniably of miscegenation:

“Woe to you and your house, for the greatest of evils has befallen the race of The Children of God and it is defiled. The heritage of Kadamhapa is lost. The fetid flow defiling the woman results from the incompatible intermingling, but it is not all, for sicknesses and diseases are also generating from the ferments of the impure implantation”.

Okay, everything in the Kolbrin (and everything else all around the world for that matter!) could be a fable, including the story of Fanvar. You are dodging the question.

How was a high culture possible after the original fall, and how could it fall again after you have these people not race mixing? Again, of what different races were Maya and Lila?

I think all these stories in the Kolbrin are fables. Yet again don't think I am debating here or anything, i am just pointing out what the Kolbrin says. And I already said Maya and Lila belonged to the same society.

You are “interpreting” that the Kolbrin says that the blood of the Children of God today (after the original fall) are in some race… In fact, the Kolbrin says no such thing.

Bro, it's talking about virtue in blood, it doesn't get any clearer than that.

Two virtuous people, by their blood, will beget an even more virtuous offspring. One cannot judge such matters by race today… and neither could you with Maya or Lila.

Just like I suspect Lila’s offspring wasn’t in the best way, as opposed to if the man had been worthy of Maya.

Got it yet?

"There is a virtue in the blood of those whose forbears were The Children of God, and if two people having this blood marry, then this virtue is increased in their children, so it is greater than either parent."

Again Len, you’re adding your own interpretation to a very clear passage. It’s speaking about forebears and blood , not about having spiritual virtue. Sorry you may not like that stance, but if the Kolbrin is what it purports to be then you must understand that these were ancient people with ancient views, and this idea of multiculturalism and egalitarism is quite new, people didn’t think that way even a century ago.

IT IS IN THE BLOOD. But not by race… the mixing and the Fall happened to ALL MANKIND.

You tell me how you can racially pick apart the Children of God?

I tell you they were scattered to the four winds. Genetic traits, and how they pass on to offspring is a science that would help explain how even siblings, one brother from another, would have more pure blood from the Children of God.

Len blood meant race back in the day. Really.

Yes Manuel, but the Kolbrin is talking not about white or black, Jew or Gentile in this instance. It is talking about an entirely different kind of primate. Said primate, DOES NOT EXIST TODAY. If it mixed with us, it is in all of us today. So, how are you to choose whom has the purer blood?

It is not by picking white or black, it goes a little deeper.

Hence the story of Maya and Lila…

I am not saying you have to do that, I am just saying that what the ancient writers of the Kolbrin would have meant with those passages was blood=race, this is super obvious. I am not advocating we follow that as we live in another era and it's quite undoable right now. However I do think that the point, meant as it was ,had a valid purpose.

The blood of the children of God is lost now, for the most part at least, or if it isn’t we have no way of distinguish it, so it would be foolish attempting to follow that passage.

The story of Maya and Lila is chonologically much later than the fall.

“Lila was a true daughter of the woman who betrayed the first race of men.”

What races existed now and what then are two separate issues Manuel. Anyway, none of this has to do with the original story posted, or the lesson it contains for us today. And yes, Lila was a true daughter of that woman, but was Maya? :wink:

Well I just posted that quote simply to show the chronological aspect. I don't think that quote is meaning that Lila was an actual genetic descendant but it's said in a more allegorical manner. Or maybe not but it's more vague at least than the previous passages which are very precise in meaning.